UPDATE: Consider specifically the responses from Dan and Trainer, then the rest. Dan points out the obvious that I deliberately left out of the poll question and follow-up - we have no infrastructure "at all".
Second: Trainer points out that I changed the rules between question and follow-up. I did so deliberately. Obviously, Patrick Henry can not give that speech, so any answers based on that premise end with that realization.
Finally: Most others point out what I have suspected and talked about many times before: I won't go alone on a suicide mission and leave my wife/kids/family to the wolves. In my world, that is valid.
So, now please consider this question: Would you begin hunting Enemies of Liberty IF ANYONE gave the Liberty or Death speech today?
And factor this question into your reply: If we will not go to arms today, and we will not participate in the Constitutional political system, are we not merely waiting to die as slaves within the system implemented by others?
If we are not ready to go to arms, and we are not willing to run for office on a wide scale and try to fight in that Constitutional arena, then what about the Pioneer Project concept? Is not secession into our own community, away from the masses, a decent middle-ground?
K
~~
I bumped the poll to the top of the right column.
At this moment, 88% of you have taken the position that you would gear up and begin hunting Enemies of Liberty if Patrick Henry were here and gave his famous Liberty or Death speech.
This means you have already taken the position that the republic is ready for Hunter-Killer Teams to begin taking out Enemies of Liberty in pursuit of restoring Liberty.
The question: Why have you not started on your own? Patrick Henry is not coming. Not one of our bloggers can fill his shoes. If you have taken the decision that it is time to hunt, why haven't you begun?
I promise I will not flame anyone who answers the question in good faith.
Nor will my feelings be hurt if you choose not to answer such a question publicly.
I genuinely would like to know what is holding you back.
Kerodin
III
I only have two hold backs at this point and both are related to my family. I have a young son who is too young to understand what liberty truly is and I don't think my wife truly understands what true liberty is. She has came a long way but she still wants to go along to get along.
ReplyDeleteBut a larger hold back also related to my family is that in all likely hood I won't make it through this alive and no one else will pick up this torch. If my son will not have liberty or at least a chance at it then what is the point of me dying. I don't want to release my family to this pack of fucking hyenas without knowing, truly and absolutely knowing, that it won't end with me.
That is what is holding me back.
Chad
2nd that.
DeleteEvery time you post something like this I feel slightly ashamed of myself for my own lack of action. I've attempted to examine Myself honestly
ReplyDeleteIt's possible that some Guy has a plan in the back of his mind. One would make a clear statement to everyone familiar with our movement. The other would be far less obvious and require no bag.
The reasoning for denying violent or illegal intent in all our writings is sound, but being of the same cloth we have the same thoughts before bed every night I'm sure.
TL made an excellent point earlier. I have a job, my parents are older, I have money left from bills every month to prep. Compare that with my friend Mike. He lost his job and his house. His kid lives at school and his wife with his parents. A month ago he went underground, off to the mountains. The choice was easier for him after that.
Maybe if the bonds of the movement were stronger. If there were clear directions and ties between targets and goals. Some people don't have much, but vs. hiding/striking alone, it starts to seem like a whole lot more.
Mr. K,
ReplyDeleteI vote NO. Mr. Henry'call to arms was a call to oppose the Crown by established, shadow governments and trained, organized militias who declared publically their opposition to King George III. Today we have no organized shadow governments or militias declaring opposition to the Federal regime of soetoro-obama's illicit government.
Your poll does not take into account the historical and factual conditions that led to and allowed Patrick Henry to make his famous speech.
NO ! I will not put myself out there, as an individual, for a ungrateful and indifferent community again. Did it once, won't repeat it again.
DAN III
Pennsylvania
I certainly cannot begin to speak for the community. However, I feel that the average man is programmed to follow. No matter their beliefs, they desire to be spurned into action by a leader. A leader that they believe in.
ReplyDeleteThey are capable of acting on their own, but it is a huge step and a place not easily gotten to.
I also believe the act of starting, not just participating in a war or revolutionary action is such a huge moral dilemma for even the best men that we are loath to get to it. As in the first and second war for freedom, people had to get to a boiling point before lead was launched.
A few cells doing hard things may get the rest moving. When will this happen? When the hardest among us decide. -55six
Okay. I'll bite.
ReplyDeleteFear.
Fear of what will happen to us personally and to our families.
We basically still have too much to lose at this point. When TPTB have started killing our loved ones and have taken away everything, then we will have nothing left to lose to go into the fray wholeheartedly. Notice I said OUR loved ones. Not someone else's loved ones. Human nature: It isn't real until it personally affects me. Meh, it is what it is.
Also lack of skills. I am not talking about taking a class for martial arts or shooting, either. I'm talking hard core military skills. If I had endless supplies of money to fund a revolution and the skills to pull it off.....
I am no super warrior ninja woman. I am an everyday ordinary, American.
Lack of support and/or understanding from family for my radical/realistic views. If I did what in my heart I wanted to, I would have to leave pretty much all of my family behind...I'm not there yet. Will I ever be? I can't answer that because I don't know.
There it is. Hate and/or despise me because of it. I don't give a rat's behind. Especially as I don't see anyone else kitting up. At least I'm honest about it. I don't know if it will even happen in my lifetime. If it does, so be it, I will do what I am capable of doing when that time comes. Until then, I will keep preparing.
Unapologeticly,
Miss Violet
C'mon, you know the answer: "We are what we do, not what we say we do." Talk is cheap.
ReplyDeleteI have explored this many times on my blog. I believe three things factor in.
ReplyDelete1, We do not have a well organized leadership like they did before the revolutionary war.
2, Back then the armies of England and our citizen soldiers had the same weapons and technology level. Not so today. Modern armies have missiles and rockets guided by computer programs and satellites. I have served in combat an know their capability.
3, A lot of saber rattling is going on with no real 'rubber meets the road' issues. ie, troops not going door to door yet.
Having said all that even during the revolutionary war only about 2% of the population would fight it would be less today. There is a lot of keyboard commandos who are cowards at heart.
Duke,
downrangereport.blogspot.com
The follow up question to the poll as presented describes a combination of two fallacies: The first, "Circular Reasoning", the premise includes the claim that the conclusion is true or (directly or indirectly) assume that the conclusion is true. As 88% of the respondents said, "Yes" to the "IF" question, it must be true that they would take the same action without the presence of the "IF" involved, in this case, the presence of Patrick Henry. The second part of the combination is the fallacy of False Delimma, "irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue."
ReplyDeleteThe question, "Why have you not started on your own? Patrick Henry is not coming. Not one of our bloggers can fill his shoes. If you have taken the decision that it is time to hunt, why haven't you begun? is simply not relevant to the poll, because it's a completely different conversation.
Remember, the poll was structured as a hypothetical question, therefore, asking another question using the hypothetical answers as factual positions puts the poll takers in the position of defending their hypothetical answers from a factual basis.
Besides the implications of scrutiny to every person who believes they are answering a poll anonymously, consider that the wording of the poll determines the relevancy of follow up discussions.
Lastly, why would any sane person provide reasons on this venue (open internet that every LEO in the country is monitoring) why they are or are not taking a particular action?
My .02
I'm not going to go alone, and that's what I am down here. Alone.
ReplyDeleteA lack of supplies. An operation of that magnitude would require, among other things, a large amount of stockpiled food, water, ammunition, medical supplies. A place to reside well outsdie any urban areas. A way to gather intel and plan operations based off that intel, not off a whim. It would require a group of individuals all operating as a cohesive unit with a clearly delineated chain of command with support personnel. It would require a way to communicate that would be reasonably secure. It would require a public that supports this group's actions. This is why people do not do this. We are not organized enough. Nor do the Militias of the several States work anything like together enough, because this happening in one or two States wouldn't lead to the restoration of the Republic. It would lead to Martial Law in a very limited area and in a way that the public would support.
ReplyDeleteChad or "Anonymous" stated my situation exactly. If I fall and we fail, my son will be a ward of the totalitarian state. What will he then be taught? I "Need" a massive response from my fellow patriots in order to risk my child's future. Until then I will instruct him and teach him the truth and prepare him for the future. Obviously if the threat becomes to great from the Fed then all restraint will be negated. I have not reached the "tipping point"..... Yet.
ReplyDeleteDavid3
I will respond by saying that the thought of getting something organized only to find out that one of the group was an informer, or who turned informer when it looked like the project would be more than they could handle is almost as good as a bullet to the head.
ReplyDeleteThis leaves us to handle things alone, things that could hurt the movement overall, or be misunderstood and look like the sort of thing that happened in Colorado.
We need first to establish goals and an identity so that when we act it is seen as in protest to an illegal government, not some random insanity. Isn't that what we have been trying to do all along?
The point of action pulls us across the line. One must be dedicated to it and have a good plan to make the resistance effective. I think we are all looking for a definitive action that would do that. When I find it I will let you know.
Could we not police ourselves? And would we even need to worry about an informer? I should think our local newspaper would be all the open source intel LEO would need to know what we are up to inside the town...
DeleteK
Two things stopping me: 1) My family and 2) I'm alone.
ReplyDeleteThe family reason should be easy to understand. I have a 15 month old son and a wife that is a recovering alcoholic. If I were to get caught doing anything and/or disappear, my wife would lose her years of sobriety (there is no doubt as she has told me as much) and my son would be left to the state... we all know that the state will not allow the child of an enemy of the state to be raised by anyone said enemy chooses, like the baby's grandmother or father's best friends, so my son will end up being raised by people that despise me and he in turn will despise me. That is not an acceptable option for me. I need to stay with my family at least long enough for my son to know the truth. Even if this means that the war is not openly fought in my day, I will at least raise him to know and understand what Liberty is and hope that when the battle comes he is ready to do the right thing.
The second reason is pretty well tied in to the first. The reason I don't do more than I do now is that I have no money for lawyers and there is no framework to support anyone that needs that kind of help. I wouldn't be nearly as reluctant to step it up if I knew that I could make bail and take it in front of a jury.
I voiced both of these concerns at the Liberty Summit back in April, they have not changed. I am trying to built tribe here, but I am constantly surprised by how few of the locals in this very rural area want to even hear about the tyranny. Sure, there are hunters galore around here, but they are still in denial about the state of the (dis)union. I have tried in the past to force feed people, but all that has done for me is turn them against me. The slow pace of simply putting intel out there for them to read that will hopefully open their eyes is grinding me down, but I have to keep going for my family.
And let this be a note to any government agents reading this: If you remove number one from my concerns above, you eliminate reason number two as well.
One man is a lone nutjob. Five men are an organized mob. Hundreds of Patriots standing as one is a Revolution. You can poke with one finger and damage nothing, or you can pull all your fingers into a fist and crush your enemies. I'm with Miss Violet, I'm no super ninja warrior woman, I have dreams and fantasies of doing something great for the Constitution and Freedom, but I realize my strengths lie in support and organization. Taking care of things and family members behind the lines to free the Warrior's mind and heart to battle. My contribution will be to care for wounded, feed, clothe, nurture, and keep the homefires burning. Something to come home to after the fight is won. But that's not to say I won't take a stand and fight when it comes to it.
ReplyDeleteWord.
DeleteMiss V
Do you think we could get 500 serious Patriot families living in a single community?
DeleteThe economic foundation would be the firearms facility, but of course there would be many ancillary business roles (sales, marketing, trucking, florists, bakers, dress shops, et cetera).
500 families would be able to dominate local politics, and perhaps even county-level politics if the proper county were chosen for the project.
Nothing breeds success like success, so if we pull it off, like-minded folks would migrate to us.
I believe this is the failure of the Free State folks - they failed to create a self-sufficient industry to feed and clothe themselves.
K
That is a very interesting concept K.
DeleteYou're right about the Free State People, they pretty much have to fend for themselves.
What you're talking about can be done. It has already been done. Only with religion as their common allegience instead of Liberty. Look into the history of the Mormons.
Miss Violet
K,
DeleteI not only think it possible, I think it is probably the first step to cohesion in the community. Nothing pulls together like intertwined interests, financial, moral, physical, etc. The key will be to balance ideology with reality. Yes, you're a Patriot, but what can you bring to the community? I've started putting together a Survivalist Resume. I want to be absolutely clear about my assets to a community and add to them as I can.
Miss Violet, awww, thanks for the "word". :-)
BTW Folks....the SHTF may start shortly as a result of the criminal attack by a citizen at a Colorado movie house. Immediately there are calls by billionaire Bloomberg to implement MORE gun control against Americans. POS Bloomberg is calling on anti-2A soetoro-obama and Romney to come out against firearms ownership by citizens. Mainstream media are attacking TEA party people, read conservatives, as the instigators of this criminal attack by an individual using firearms.
ReplyDeleteFolks....here is your false flag ala Matt Bracken's stadium shooting in his novel "Enemies Foreign & Domestic".
Get ready. There may be no turning back. I'm expecting soetoro-obama to declare a state of emergency in the next 72 hours, tonight or during the weekend.
DAN III
Pennsylvania
We're each alone, always. We may join with others, but we're still always alone. A thing is what it is.
ReplyDeleteThe real answer is that we're looking the wrong way. It's not about what needs to be destroyed, but what needs to be built. The decent person is about creation and production, not destruction. That's pretty tough to imagine in the face of the Leviathan, but that's the way it is nonetheless.
The challenge isn't to ignore the Leviathan, but rather to change the playing field to one of decency and humanity. Others may not ever see the intellectual arguments, but they'll jump on that bandwagon. They always did and always will. Even the Loyalists became Americans. A thing is what it is; everyone is human.
An successful insurgency needs outside help. Washington had France (they hated the Brits) and a place to refit and train safe from attack. The muzzies in the sand box have pakistan as supplier and safe haven. Some country is supplying the insurgency in syria. I just don't see it here. In our civil war the south got almost no outside help.
ReplyDeleteWill it happen, yes, I think it will. Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has arrived. They know fundamentally changing America isn't for more individual liberty but less. This is why the bitter clingers are being are mentioned in the homeland security report. Yes it has them thinking. Maybe keeping them awake some nights.
A rogue hunter killer will make the population that needs to be involved turn away. So no it shouldn't be done. We live in an accelerated world it will be on us soon enough.
bob
From Ursus Minor (Some folks running TOR can't post. Send me your comment in email and I'll post for you. - K)
ReplyDelete"I think many people voted yes out of a desire for some kind of cohesive movement with legitimacy and a voice that speaks for a larger population of people who support the cause. After all, that is what Patrick Henry represents. He was not some individual acting alone. He was giving voice to a broad base of patriots that were putting differences aside for a larger cause. I really believe that is why most people voted yes.
That kind of cohesion and broad support doesn't exist today. When I make my move off the porch it will be with the understanding that I probably won't make it back and I want to make sure it is not in vain, and that my family is in a secure place with another trusted family. Blind, impulsive actions are easily condemned and quickly forgotten. Sun Tzu taught that the intelligent man who picks the time and place to confront his adversary will usually win a battle. Getting drawn into a fight on my adversary's terms would be stupid at this point and would play into his hands."
The answer should be obvious. 88% of your respondents are blowhards. Call them cowards if you must, but at least the 12% are honest with themselves.
ReplyDeleteWhere are you getting 12%? Is that based on who answered the above question or is it the percentage who said "no" they would not stand with PH. Because if it is the later the poll at the right says 14%.
DeleteJust curious.
Miss Violet
The numbers change a bit as people continue to vote. It was 88% this morning, now down to 85%.
DeleteK
To be fair, it might just be that the 88% misunderstood the question and transported themselves back to PH's time, instead of transporting PH to our time ("right now"). Still, it would appear that 88% either struggle with reading comprehension or are just plain full of hot air. I suppose a third possibility exists: They are so impressionable that having PH here in the flesh would _actually_ make the difference.
ReplyDeleteI don't know which of the 3 possibilities is more responsible for the 88%. I don't even know which to _hope_ for.
"Still, it would appear that 88% either struggle with reading comprehension or are just plain full of hot air. I suppose a third possibility exists: They are so impressionable that having PH here in the flesh would _actually_ make the difference. "
ReplyDelete...as opposed to you, who obviously suffers from being a sanctimonious shit.
As the question was asked of the people who took the poll, did you do so? If not, you did not understand the question, did you. If you did, fine, then answer the question as it pertains to you instead of berating the rest of us. Otherwise, stfu.
Miss Violet
No one here expects Patrick to come back from the dead. I think the concept of the question was more centered around IF this were an organized resistance movement with a clear and strong leader going hot in the right direction would we be willing to take up arms in support. 88% say that they have at least considered their role should the possibility arise that bullets may be required to replace computer keys.
ReplyDeleteNo, but only because I'm not ready yet.
ReplyDeleteLets turn it around and ask "what would it take to be able to start hunting?"
First - pragmatic. I would need a source of income. Have to keep the belly and the gas tank full. Retired military/government (ironically enough) could be young enough and financially able. The decision would also be easier if I were, say, single/divorced/widowed with no children but had nieces and nephews who's future I cared about. If it was a solo effort, a retiree who was "seeing the country" would be almost impossible to catch because there would be no inconsistencies in his story and no possibility of an informant turning him in.
Second - moral. It isn't a hot war at the moment, so the targets would be "civilians" in a legal sense, even if they were raging Marxists who publicly declared their willingness to "reeducate" or kill millions of Americans to achieve their goals. I believe that anyone who publicly stated their willingness to enslave/kill Liberty loving Americans, was actively working toward that goal and was in a position of power or influence that would strongly facilitate it would be a valid target. The other valid target would be those who are implementing the orders, whether they be cops, IRS/DHS/??? agents or anyone hired by the government to carry out these policies. The only moral problem for me then would be being absolutely sure that my target met at least one of these criteria.
The moral aspect is really the toughest. When does offense become valid as a defense? If you wait until they kick down your door, it is too late. If you go too early you give the enemy the "ammunition" to take away the very rights you want to protect. Just as important, most of us understand the idea of unintended consequences and understand how destructive those can be.
The Pioneer Project may be the only approach that has some chance of not spinning out of control, due to those unintended consequences. Problem is, we appear to be running out of time.
If the pragmatic pieces fell into place, and they may in the not too distant future, I would start hunting.
Posted with TOR (www.torproject.org) to allow free speech without fear of retaliation.
I agree that the Pioneer Project is a reasonable approach to build cohesion, but I wake up every day with the feeling in my gut that I am running out of time to get things in order as far as preps are concerned.
ReplyDelete[It looks like I finally got Tor configured properly, yeah me!]
If you are using TOR, use the browser bundle, it's easier and you can keep it on a thumb drive so it doesn't even sit on your computer when you are not using it. Also, when you go to comment, right click on the comment text box, select the menu item - This Frame, then the menu item - Open Frame In New TAb. That should make it possible to post comments. Something about how frames work makes the comment box usually not work well on the main web page. Computers being what they are I won't guarantee this will work in every circumstance but it works with the TOR browser bundle running under Linux.
ReplyDeleteSo what's holding you back?
ReplyDeleteI assume your question is to me: I have stated many, many times that I do not think it is time for violence.
DeleteMy ire is with those who call for it and never leave the keyboard, staining us all with their stench.
K
My response isn't meant as condemnation only observation to develop better understanding. Each of the original patriots ALSO had kids,family problems,dreams and plans,limited funds perhaps, and ALL the other issues we see listed here.
ReplyDeleteThey, UNLIKE people of today, lived in a world where people seemed MORE willing to lay it All on the line in defense of principles. "give me liberty or give me death" was more than a bumper sticker to them,as history shows.
On the topic of waiting til it's in your face personal, and raids and roundups begin as the line in the sand, I think thats less likely to happen as TPTB have raised the imposition of totalitarianism to the scientific level. Why be forcefully blatant when a patient and slow imposition will achieve the same result? Again,the original founders put it in the face of King George hence Lexington and Concord etc.
When a boiling frog plan seems to be TPTB's plan waiting for dynamic actions as our departure line is self defeating.
I am no different than you but the above must be considered in this discussion.