Earlier this week in a post I titled "I Call BullSh*t" I challenged the folks who are constantly calling for immediate action to STFU or take point and go to work.
In the post directly before this one I asked how many thought it was time to undertake an Athens 1946 Op, even if it only involved mustering in full kit in some place that would demand attention from the Enemies of Liberty.
While the sampling is still low, it is already trending as I suspected. Nearly 2:1 say no, it is not yet time for that kind of Direct Action.
I am not going to pick a side or advocate either path. I think my position is pretty clear.
I am going to ask folks who read this blog to take an active step in the future when you run across a Blogger or a Commenter who is chiding fellow Patriots for inaction, and especially those who are calling for action, to confront that person and ask them pointedly, why they have not yet taken point on the Op they are advocating.
I have no problem with any Patriot who decides it is time for action. It's that Freedom & Liberty thing, I'm a fan.
I do have a problem with anyone calling for action, urging action, deriding fellow Patriots for not taking action while sitting in their computer chair and yet not taking point.
That makes us all look bad. It adds a very negative and nonconstructive facet to the work we are doing toward our goals.
I am convinced that the arithmetic demands the conclusion that economic Implosion is imminent, and from that our world will change. I think the chance of Liberty gaining ground in that chaos is very, very slim. I think the Enemies of Liberty have every advantage, every resource and they will work very diligently and ruthlessly to impose their will on the country, discarding the final remnants of the Constitution.
Prepare for that.
Network with fellow Patriots.
And if you choose to step off the porch, Godspeed.
But do not call for others to do what you are not doing yourself.
And for the rest of us: Call BullSh*t when you see it. That kind of hypocrisy taints us all.
Kerodin
III
"Tri-testicular," I like to call 'em. I tell you when I disagree, so it's only right that I tell you when I agree. I agree.
ReplyDeleteI'll be stepping off my porch if and when I decide that I must step off my porch. No person can make that decision for another, and that's that.
Thing is, they got crew served weapons ....and air. Gonna be a bitch! And one can only guess at some of the spook-deviltry their looking to try out
ReplyDeleteI especially dislike the idea of deriding someone for what you are not willing to do yourself. That feels like moral cowardice, to me.
ReplyDeleteI choose to live where there are fewer issues such as faced by those living in urban areas, whether D.C., NYC, Orlando, or wherever. I won't be faced by rioting crowds of people who have bought into Al Sharpton's bullshit, or who look like Obama's illegitimate children (although I feel certain he practices male gender anal birth control).
Somehow though, I feel this could leave me at risk to earlier .gov action, as they seem to like to pick off individuals or small groups living rurally, especially here out West. I imagine there is a good chance I might be _forced_ off the porch even before I am ready, although I might step off just before that, ala a few of the gentlemen in "Neither Predator Nor Prey" who developed a personal dislike of some of .gov's actions.
Yes, I fully acknowledge I am probably _way_ too small an irritant to even register on their radar, but when things start to get nasty, I believe some of us who have chosen to be "vocal" may get visited, harassed, or even told we must become snitches, moles in the "movement" to give up intel on our brothers. It behooves us to be ready before such a thing might happen, so that when we respond to such tactics we don't shuffle off this mortal coil empty handed. I'd sure like to give Charon something other than coin to pay for my ride. Like a few unwilling fellow passengers, perhaps.
RegT.....wow. Several weeks ago at this blog you cited how "we", meaning the citizens of tbe United States, must support Israel. I've called you out numerous times asking you if you've sent a big, personal check to the Israeli government to show your support and "put your money where your mouth is". You've ignored my question time & time again. It is clear to me you only support Israel by spouting rhetoric in cyberspace. You want other Americans to do for Israel, with our treasure and blood, what you youself are not willing to do. You won't support your beloved Israel with your money or your physical assistance. You want fellow Americans to "do as I say not as I do (or don't do)".
DeleteYour call for support for Israel is a vaguely disguised call for monetary and physical action in support of Israel. It is a call, by you, for others to do what you won't do yourself. Your hypocrisy is astounding and as you understand so well, your moral courage is non-existent.
You sir, are the type of individual Mr. Kerodin describes in his essay above.
RegT....you are full of BULLSHIT !
DAN III
Pennsylvania
Reg - all excellent points. I'm with you - I chose rural America simply because it isn't the decay and destruction of the urban areas. Yeah we may be early targets, but we don't have to be soft targets.
DeleteThose that instigate while taking no action themselves are pitiful. The worlds full of internet commandos and sadly the Patriot movement seems to be populated by quite a few of them.
Dan III,
DeleteAt first I thought you must be a troll or a .gov snitch, but actually I think you are probably a pimply teenager pretending to be a man on forums such as this.
. Simply because I ignore your bullshit - and that is all it is - you decide you know what I think and what my intentions are. What a pussy way of arguing. Yes, I have sent money to various Jewish organizations, not that the pittance I can spare will make much of a difference. As a mater of fact, I just itemized four organizations on my tax return mailed in a few days back. Why don't you get a life instead of attacking people from the bottomless depth of your ignorance and worthless opinion?
You keep insisting I want American blood spilled for Israel. What a bullshit artist you are to throw that strawman up repeatedly. Israel doesn't need our help, just STF out of her way. Grow up and learn to argue like a man, Dan III, instead of the thirteen year old "keyboard wizard" you most likely are in reality.
Treaded....I caution you to be wary of BULLSHIT artists like this RegT character. He talks the talk but he'll never walk the walk.
DeleteDAN III
Pennsylvania
RegT,
DeleteWell I see you "manned up" much like the way I expected you to. Because I've challenged you, your immature response has been to belittle me with immature namecalling...."troll", "pimply faced teenager", "your bullshit", "your ignorance", "worthless opinion", "bullshit artist", "13 year old", just like a man without argument.
You declared quite strongly some weeks back, how you support Israel. Of course you haven't packed your bags and moved there. You haven't given your money to the Israeli government. All you've done is to indicate your American support for a government who murdered dozens and wounded hundreds of Americans in 1967. You would gladly see soetoro-obama embroil the US in a Middle East conflagaration supporting the Israelis. Wouldn't you ? Is that the kind of support you write of concerning Israel ?
Oh....and contrary to your namecalling accusations of my 13 year old adolescence, I helped strip American stockpiles of prepositioned war material located in West Germany, in 1973. I helped move hundreds of M60 tanks, APCs, trucks and small arms on the boat/airlift to save the Israelis asses from the Arabs, during the October War.
I'm fed up with the Israelis. However, I'm more fed up with the likes of Americans like you, who cheer on continuing support for the Israelis and their ilk. It is the likes of people like you who are threats to our freedom and liberty. Our freedom has nothing to do with "supporting" the state of Israel. Our freedom has to do with stopping the flow of American blood and treasure to foreign lands.
Oh....and you DO want American blood spilled for Israel. Hell, you believe the intentional attack by the Israelis on the USS Liberty, was an "accident". You are the one stating you support the Israelis.
No....YOU are of the mentality that has plagued this nation for years. You cheer on American "support" for Israel with the expenditure of what little treasure remains and the blood of our military. What other "support" could you be offering ? Certainly not YOUR money to the government of Israel or your physical commitment to the IDF, correct ?
May I suggest, in the future, you think twice about responding to one's challenges to your statements and beliefs, with namecalling and ad hominem attacks. Your reply above, to me, was little different than the guidance given by Saul Alinsky in his book "Rules For Radicals".
RegT....you're full of hypocritical BULLSHIT !
DAN III
Pennsylvania
Sir, I was referred here by wirecutter. I came for perspective and here it is, even entitled as such. As with your prior post where you called BS, very well said. Perspective breeds credibility. Thank you,
ReplyDeleteQuixote
+100. Anybody talking action is ether a hypocrite, a mole, or a fraud. Anybody ready for action does not talk about it.
ReplyDeleteBut we are not at that point of action yet. It is the 1939 phoney war.
So use that time to build credible deterrence. Whats that?
Training. GEAR. Everybody has rifles. Can you feed it? clean and repair it? Do you have LBE, rucks, and dozens of things that living in the field or in MOUNT environments? Got first aid? Cold medicine? Long term care? Safe houses? Shoe repair? cold weather gear? FOOD? It goes on and on. It does not start and end with a firearm. That is just the Pointy tip of it.
Without understanding that it is a lifestyle change, you won't last long.
...And like it or not, there will have to be an event that will trigger folks to action. Be it a round up of political foes, firearms, food, cancellation of elections, or financial collapse, unless a significant portion of the population feels action is called for, TPTB will just Hutaree you.
Someone said you will know it is time to step off the porch when you walk out the door and see your neighbors stepping off theirs. I like to be a few minutes early to any appointment, Let's hope I am able to see it coming.
T 802, all good stuff. Like posts from Wirecutter & Kerodin seems like sound, sensible insight. I just don't think the lofty rhetoric about meeting at the top of nameless metaphorical mountains is helpful, or useful. Don't mean to piss anyone off, unless of course I'm pissin' someone off... I appreciate your comments T, Thnx,
DeleteQuixote
T802....I hope people will take your comments to heart and act on your info. Great comments. Thank you.
DeleteDAN III
Pennsylvania
Some people are just frustrated.
ReplyDeleteAs the saying goes... Our Forefathers would be shooting by now.
Obviously, we are not our Forefathers.
Anyone is certainly welcome to argue that, but it is the truth.
I think those individuals calling for action very well know that for them to step off the porch all by their lonesome is just nothing more than a certain death wish. Because it is just that.
Individuals did not fight, die, and win independence. A collective of men and woman did.
I think calling those people a bunch of posers is a reflection of those who chastise them. After all, the patriot movement might, maybe, someday, could very well, we hope, we'll see, depending on if the SHTF, if they start it, blah, blah, blah... collectively step off onto the... Green meanie.
Yeah, yeah... we're all "free men." Are you sure about that? Pissing in a non-government approved toilet bowl does not count. Or thumbing your nose in less than 1 percent of 1 percent of 1 percent of unconstitutional government regs does not equal, "Look at me, I am a free man."
Personally, I am not going to chastise these people. Because they are right. Unfortunately, even for the patriot movement to jump off now would be suicide. As I doubt, that even if it did collectively now, there would be enough to pop a pimple on Mr. Gov's butt.
So lets just call it premature as of now. And for those who are sincere in their call, bless their hearts. But unfortunately, now is not the time... if ever we see it. We'll see.
A man of frustration:
ReplyDeletehttp://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/patrick.asp
I think we are all in various stages of frustration. It doesn't make any of us any less or more patriots. The ultimate test will be...? What?
And just a note. I wasn't pointing fingers at any one individual or class of individual. Collectively... yes.
"Individuals did not fight, die, and win independence. A collective of men and woman did."
ReplyDeleteI agree with the gist of your sentiment, Curtis, but a quick visit to the graveyard will disavow you of this particular notion.
Jim,
ReplyDeleteI am well of aware of that. But step back and look at that graveyard again. Is it a grave, or a graveyard? Is it one tombstone, or a collective of tombstones?
So we both agree.
Metaphorically, was it a tree that won our independence, or a forest?
ReplyDeleteI get it, Curtis, just as I'm sure you get that when you sight in, that ain't a metaphor you're lookin' at.
ReplyDeleteI harp on this because it's important. As long as people focus on a "higher good" than themselves, nothing will ever change. Your higher good is more sensible than others, I'm sure, but it doesn't matter. Just as in business, it's each person acting on his own behalf that counts. If someone else doesn't think he's worth it, why should I?
I'm all in favor of looking at the forest, but not to the point of believing it's comprised of something other than trees. That graveyard is a collection of tombstones; just ask the widows.
The GIs of Athens TN 1946 relied on running an election campaign with a full campaign ticket to sweep the local government clean; they gained support from the people and would've won but for the oath traitors seizing the ballot box-ONLY THEN did they arm up and handled business.
ReplyDeleteDisplays of firepower?
Effective social and political action works better for the Average American than parading in full gear, armed. FreeFor has a huge, steep learning curve when it comes to public relations.
But isn't FREEFOR the public ?
DeleteDAN III
Pennsylvania
The metaphor was just that, nothing more. If everyone is just in it for themselves... well, you are all on your own as you can count me out. If one can't rise above themselves for a higher good other than themselves, stay home. If you think every one of those graves are full of people who saw nothing more than themselves and didn't look for a higher good other than themselves in their sacrifice... that is just pitiful.
ReplyDeleteNo man jumped on a grenade to save his own ass. Every one of those men, while they may have each made a individual decision to do what they did, didn't do it alone and did do it in a collective cause. A cause that they thought was for higher good than themselves.
"Every one of those men, while they may have each made a individual decision to do what they did,"
ReplyDeleteThen why are you arguing?
I'm not trying to prove that it's impossible to have a value higher than one's own life. I'm trying to get you to internalize what you just wrote here. "They each made a individual decision to do what they did..." That's right, and they each did it of their own judgment and commitment.
So honor that, and don't pretend that the "higher cause" was created of anything but those souls' judgments. That's all.
You see, when we try to pass off that the "higher cause" is something else, we supplant the object of our endeavor with that "higher cause," as if the forest consisted of something other than trees.
I'm confident you realize that all of the progressivism, socialism, communism, statism and everything else, is built of the con that there's "something else." Well, there isn't and that's all I'm saying. A society of liberty may be the forest, but the individual is the tree.
Jim,
DeleteI went through a period once when I felt that "altruism" was a myth, that everything anyone ever does is for their own purpose, their own gratification. While that is technically true, some of us get gratification from doing things that do not directly benefit us in any way. Curtis' example of a man throwing himself on a grenade to save his fellow soldiers - some of whom he may not even like well enough to buy a beer off-duty - was a good example. The man who recently drowned down in Florida trying to rescue a small family he didn't even know who were caught by a rip current, is another.
You can't simply ignore such proofs of a "higher cause" and claim it doesn't exist. Doesn't work, my friend. We are all indeed individuals, but there are those of us who are willing to move past "self" and do something that benefits family, friends, and even strangers. That doesn't make us "collectivists, Marxists, socialists, or anything other than people who simply understand it isn't "all about me".
Jim Klein and Curtis....from what I read of your back-and-forth, you both are basically correct in your thoughts and comments. Your points of view accent the other's opinions.
ReplyDeleteGood comments. You guys are great !
DAN III
Pennsylvania
Dan III,
ReplyDeleteThank you! Jim... arguing? I am not arguing. Why do you feel the need for the circular mental masturbation? An individual may not be the forest, but... that individual decided, for some greater good, to make a forest with other like minded... tree's. I fail to see why it is so hard for you to see that.
RegT: That doesn't make us "collectivists, Marxists, socialists, or anything other than people who simply understand it isn't "all about me".
Exactly. If it was "all about me," why the need for a... militia? Why the need for G. Washington. Why the need for Continental Army? Why the need for a command structure? Unless of course, one just wants to be a tree and go it alone... in that case, have at it.
And... if it was all about the tree... then what the hell is a FreeFor, but a forest?
See Jim, I am not arguing with you. I am pointing out the obvious.
That's all fine, Reg; I'm known as a fairly charitable guy myself. The point isn't that the world is "all about me." The point is that MY LIFE--and everyone else's, of course--is all about "ME."
ReplyDeleteI'm not going to argue about your "higher cause," or anyone else's. That's your business and theirs, of course. And that's the point---if you believe it's about something else, then anyone who doesn't share your view about what the something else is, becomes an enemy.
The TRUTH resolves all this. The TRUTH is that each person creates his own values and causes. That's all I'm trying to say. Some actions require teams and cooperation; obviously the rational man recognizes this and works for the team and so on.
If you look at it carefully, you'll see that I'm not the "selfish" one here, looking to gain values from others. Those who believe THEIR "higher cause" is the one for which everyone ought to go along, are really being the selfish ones in this sense. Just like a limousine liberal, they SAY they're doing everything for everyone else, but in reality they're trying to have THEIR values achieved through the work, and often mob action, of others.
Is that any clearer?
"... then what the hell is a FreeFor, but a forest?"
ReplyDeleteGood question, and it's exactly the one I'm trying to address. I'm in business and it's all about teamwork there, just as it is on a battlefield. That's not the issue; the issue is "Why," or "What's it for?" THAT'S our disagreement, to the degree we even have one.
You are saying, basically, "It's for something besides the individuals involved." That's your higher cause; that's the thing for which the individuals are sacrificing. Call it Liberty or Righteousness or God's Word or whatever---your point is that there's something else there besides the individuals, and THAT'S what the fight is for.
Me, I'm saying quite simply, "That's false." As a matter of FACT, it's false. There is nothing there BESIDES the individuals, just as a forest is made of nothing but trees. There is no distinct entity "the forest" just as there's no distinct entity "society." A forest is a bunch of trees; society is a bunch of individuals.
This does NOT mean that a forest is a tree, or society is an individual. One guy can't build a skyscraper, but a bunch of them can. A tree can't burn 100 acres, but a forest can. All I'm saying is that the society, or even the "higher causes" that you support, are each built of individuals and individuals operate by free will. Period.
That's all, and nothing else. This is true for ALL human action, and I know you agree that it's obvious. So if it's obvious, let's stop pretending that it's not. You're going to do what you decide, and I'm going to do what I decide. And so is EVERY other individual alive, now and forevermore. You can't make it go "the right way," by imagining that there's something else there. The mind functions to identify reality and this is reality. That's all I'm trying to say and I'm not challenging anyone else's judgments.
That's the whole point...we EACH must be free to pursue our own judgments and values, even when we disagree about what the "higher causes" are, or even IF there are any of those. Liberty is not "something else" out there; it is the manifestation of exactly this principle. Like the Jefferson quote, it's the state of being whereby each individual gets to instantiate his decisions, while not stopping anyone else from doing likewise. That's all I'm trying to express, and you know damn well it's right.
It has gone from:
DeleteJim KleinApr 15, 2012 04:26 PM
"Individuals did not fight, die, and win independence. A collective of men and woman did."
I agree with the gist of your sentiment, Curtis, but a quick visit to the graveyard will disavow you of this particular notion.
To...
Look Jim, you are arguing with yourself.
I'm not going to spend much time with this anymore. Just a couple of random quick pick:
Jim - That's the whole point...we EACH must be free to pursue our own judgments and values, even when we disagree about what the "higher causes" are, or even IF there are any of those.
Hitler, Mao, etc. were a higher cause unto themselves and pursued their own judgements and values. And then others picked up on it and followed. I would say that even individual liberty and freedom has limits. And... as there are limits, then there must be a "higher cause" that dictates what those limits are.
Jim - ...while not stopping anyone else from doing likewise.
And around we go. And without a "higher cause" of judgements and values, that leaves us... where in our liberty and... likewise?
Jim - ...and you know damn well it's right.
No. But here. Uhhh... have a cookie?
You're killing yourself with your own ARGUMENT.
You probably should have at best left it here:
Curtis Apr 15, 2012 05:38 PM
Jim,
I am well of aware of that. But step back and look at that graveyard again. Is it a grave, or a graveyard? Is it one tombstone, or a collective of tombstones?
So we both agree.
I guess we can agree that if you don't pick my pocket or break my leg I won't shoot yer ass? There. See? A higher cause we can agree on! Now, if only we can get the forest to agree, to ... a higher cause, on that? You know, like building a skyscraper?
Sigh.
Anyhow... carry on.
One more: Jim - The point isn't that the world is "all about me." The point is that MY LIFE--and everyone else's, of course--is all about "ME."
Jim, you are killing yourself. And here we are, ME, ME, ME, ME... and we can't agree on a... higher cause! Gee! ME-ME?
Look, to be fair, I agree with you up to a point. But like I said, you are arguing with yourself and you are butchering this all out of proportion.
Good day sir.
"I guess we can agree that if you don't pick my pocket or break my leg I won't shoot yer ass?"
ReplyDeleteRight, and the other way around too, of course.
Voila...liberty. I have a much different reason than you why I won't pick your pocket. But in the end, who cares?