UPDATE: Ron Paul took Weston County in Wyoming caucuses, which most of you say is heavy FSW territory (NorthEast corner of the state). It looks like Sublette will choose next month, and I haven't found anything on Fremont yet.
Sublette has just over 10,000 population, which argues that III pioneers could make a difference there with smaller numbers, compared to the 40,000 who live in Fremont County. Of course, population numbers are a factor, but not the only thing to be considered.
~~
I figured we'd start a new thread - it gets clumsy bumping the posts and once the comments reach a certain point.
So: After much insight offered by many of you, I am looking at Sublette & Fremont Counties. I like the topography. I think both counties bring a lot to the table for a potential III Community, while avoiding the highest cost of living in the Jackson Hole part of the mountains.
Here are some hard facts: I do not think this has any more success potential than Free State Wyoming unless we can import jobs and earning potential with us. As discussed, being part of a serious firearms company is on my To-Do list before I die. It is a good time to be in such a business, and as we've noted, in a SHTF world it would not hurt for a III Community to be in control of such an asset, with a complementary ammo loading facility. Many of us bring other skills to the table and could offer training in various disciplines to folks from across the country. This is how Capitalism works, and it is how a III community could truly be self-sufficient and self-perpetuating.
Real world: To buy the requisite piece of property, get the necessary buildings (even pre-fab to begin) and infrastructure in place, hire sufficient skilled professionals and have the necessary capital to have a legitimate chance of survival is a back-of-the-envelope $4 million. In my mind, this would include small pre-fab housing as a starting point for a number of folks who would need support when arriving.
It would be foolish for any of us to take a plunge and uproot our lives if we are not relatively confident we have our backsides covered, with a legitimate potential for success.
At this moment in life, I certainly don't have the money to bankroll anything like this effort. Nor will we get there as a group by selling flags & mugs. I have two business activites that could get us there if they work out (one of which I'll actually be posting about soon), but relying on either of those as sources of funding isn't business, it's hoping & guessing - not my style.
So, how do we get there? I see two possibilities.
First: Since what we are proposing is a cross between a mining town and a Hippie Commune, and every Patriot involved should have skin in the game as well as income and security from the efforts, the most feasible solution is selling stock in whatever company we decide to run.
I have the ability to underwrite that much of an effort, and the experience - BUT: It is not as simple as just forming a company and advertising "Stock for Sale" on a blog. The SEC will be involved and every state in which stock is advertised will be involved - they require paperwork filings, registration fees, and at least a dozen headaches per state. This avenue is not cheap, it is not easy, it is legally complex, and there is one certainty: It ain't going to happen simply by selling stock to the current pool of III Patriots who read our blogs.
So, at least today, this is a non-starter.
Second option: We grow our pool of Patriots to a number that is large enough for everyone to buy in for a few thousand shares (even those folks who choose to support the effort without relocating), and we raise the capital needed to do this prudently. The 527 exists to grow our community, but the reality is simple - at current course & speed the 527 will be big enough to try this about a decade after Implosion.
Final Option: One of you has a few million laying around and cuts a check. Let me know, and I'll send you the mailing address. ;)
Unless someone has another idea for getting the capital, we remain in the arena of "Good idea".
If I had the money to underwrite this operation, I'd be in Wyoming right now with several of you, scouting locations, choosing contractors to set up our digs, and meeting with current county & town leaders to negotiate terms. If I get the money, I'll do the same.
Tribe.
The most realistic course for us given these realities: Let's noodle through the plan and get to a point that when we can do it, we will pull the trigger. Delayed gratification, with a clear goal, plan, and then execution when it is prudent.
At the same time, let's continue working to grow our community. That is where we will find success, on many fronts. Hit the high return-on-investment locations and hand out flyers & business cards and drive as many people as you can to WRSA and our other blogs.
Consider the direction you would like to see the III take, as a community. Do we want to be visible, and in the faces of Occupy and SEIU this summer? Do we want to hang back and let those folks exercise LEO so both sides burn resources (and gain battle experience)?
Do we want to have a political voice in the world? That was the purpose of the 527 - to grow our ranks to the point that when we write an Editor or call a Congressman, he takes the call and knows who we are. Do we all agree on a common mantra, such as : Restore the Constitution, and drive it hard? Do we consider a serious, continuing presence at places like Gun Shows where we can recruit, and possibly even ask new folks who find us to pay an official "Membership" to finance our voice?
Or, do we remain as we are...which, folks, is unknown by most people and disliked by many who do know us for our positions and/or past sins?
Do we continue to bicker over tomato/tomahto issues and tolerate people who take us off-topic into the weeds?
Personally, I'd like to start a firearms company with many of you, live among you in a place that we can call our own. But none of that will ever happen unless we get serious.
NRA could underwrite our Wyoming Project without blinking an eye.
We could do it too if we got serious about building the III Brand.
What say you?
Kerodin
III
I do like the idea. Really, I do.
ReplyDeleteI think it can be done for less on a smaller scale, but you've covered a decent medium-scale scenario.
I'd do it, too, if there was the interest.
Keep in mind that the Feds do have an SOP for handling tight-knit, cohesive communities who annoy them.
Waco.
Certainly a way of making a living would get more people to move than just asking people to move like the Free State Project. They have 1,000 people now out over 11,000 who pledged to move within five years.
ReplyDeletehttp://freestateproject.org/
AP is right. But let's not forget that,
ReplyDeleteA) Waco let ATF walk off stage when they ran out of ammo. (Personally, I wouldn't let them walk off until _I_ ran out of ammo.Or there was nothing left moving to shoot at.)
B) The folks at Waco were under the mistaken impression that they were dealing with Feds who still possessed some integrity (at least, up until they found they were being shot at while they were trying to surrender out the back door, where FBI gunners fired to keep them in the structure to burn to death).
If this comes together, you have to accept that we will be an early target, and plan appropriately. More importantly, I wonder if there is sufficient time between now and the beginning of the implosion. I submit that, in lieu of giving up, we might as well do what we can to move in such a direction, until we no longer can. Although this might divert some resources from preps for yourself and your family, it is certainly possible that such a community as Sam envisions could be resilient enough to make up for the shortfall.
Posting for Semper Fi 0321 - Blogger is giving him trouble and won't let him post.
ReplyDeleteHere's his comment: I think it's a fabulous idea, one that has been brought up before. Read "Molon Labe" by Kenneth Royce aka Boston T. Party. He was hoping that DSA and some others would consider moving here. Lots of guns and outdoor people here. On that line, consider building a bigger gun than an AR-15. The distances are long, the wind howls at 50 mph+, the animals are big and will eat or stomp you (grizzly, cougar, moose), just think in tactical terms of Afghanistan and you'll see why we need something bigger and badder than an AR-15, even though the poodle shooter is amerikas favorite rifle. Can't even imagine being out in the woods with my AR and encountering a grizz. I usually hunt with a .375 H&H, overkill yes, undergunned, never.
Count on losing a lot of your people. Wyoming is a very, very tough place to live. Lots of retirees move here, build their dream house, and move away in 2-3 yrs. Climate, altitude, rural attitude, distances from hospitals, shopping, all play a part in not being like it was back home.
I'm 57 yrs old, 7 yrs USMC, custom gunmaker and draftsman, have traveled the world and this continent too. Lived in LA, San Diego, Coeur D'Alene ID, Seattle WA, Boise ID,Switzerland, NC, Roosevelt and Price UT, etc, and then settled here 18 yrs ago. Wife left me after 6 yrs, she hated this place for it's lack of malls and fast food. I adore it here, it's the last corner of the old west. I hike, ride dirt bikes, hunt elk, artifact hunt(arrowheads and buffalo skulls), cut firewood, work outdoors as a carpenter and log worker. And still build an occasional rifle. This place is heaven for those things.
But the weather is nasty, winds howl for weeks at a time, sometimes over 50mph. The winter highways are icy and snowed over, road closures are to be counted on, semi's tip over. Locals claim we have winter and the 4th of July. Actually, we have about 7 months of winter and 5 months of summer and fall. Spring evades us, we go from long johns to shorts in June.
If you like quiet time, read a book, can cut your income and spending in half or less, and have the survivor instinct, you'll make it here. That's what I did.
As for a place to live, most of the FSW folks went to the NE corner, because it had the lowest population to allow for local gov't turnover. I live in NW Fremont county right up against the Wind River Mtns. An hours drive west will bring you to Yellowstone NP and Jackson Hole, home of the billionaires. Some of the most beautiful country in the lower 48 here. But I have to drive 75 miles, west or east, to go shop Walmart or get a MacDonalds burger. more later.....
Absolutely not without risk, but this is the one scenario I can see myself in a Tribe. When I consider even a few hundred Patriots from our online community settling into a physical community, the skills, the intellectual power, the work ethic, the devotion to Liberty and one another because of the bonds of Liberty, I find myself in awe of the potential. It is the best answer I have yet heard to the question : How do we survive, prevail, and live our lives in Liberty as we wish.
ReplyDeleteWhile the arithmetic confirms that economic implosion is imminent, I still say there are a LOT of very motivated, clever people out there working to delay it for as long as possible. I think Implosion could happen tomorrow, and I think it is just as likely that it could be 4-6 years out (that assumes political forces do not deliberately trigger Implosion for their own ends). The Banksters want to milk us for as long as possible. The Communist animals want Liberty to breathe its last as soon as possible.
I am still convinced as well that once Implosion occurs, FedGov will find it very difficult to impose its will in many places. Short of a military strike, I think a community such as we are considering will have everything it needs to repel any LEO effort and the hordes probably won't make it to that part of the world. They'll rampage through the suburbs of every major metro, but then run out of victims and begin cannibalizing.
We can do this if we set our minds to it. And if we arrive with a business with which to provide for ourselves, rather than all of us having to look for work as ranch hands, we'll be in a very strong and safe position.
We'd need enough capital to properly set up the business to do everything in-house, and enough capital reserve to ensure we could survive until the business is paying the bills, but we all face that same reality in our lives now.
And the folks who support the concept but have no intention of moving to Wyoming will at least have the knowledge that if they must bugout one day, there is a safe place if you can get there...but bring your own Cheetos.
K
Kerodin,
ReplyDeleteI am a tax CPA who moved recently near the location in Wyoming shown above. I have 14 years of experience in tax and would be willing to look at the tax law surrounding a firearms company and Wyoming. I am not an expert in this area, but am willing to take the time and effort to find out more about it and to understand it.
I can't guarantee to find a magical loophole, but I can find out the current law and determine what grey areas there might be and how we could take advantage of them.
If you would like for me to do this I will. It would be helpful for me if you have an idea what you want me to find out. This would narrow any search.
Chad
Chad: That would be wonderful, thank you. Please don't invest too much time, a thumbnail sketch from 40,000 feet will be plenty at this point.
ReplyDeleteFrom what I have read about Wyoming they are business-friendly. The Feds would hit us with their corporate tax rate, of course, and we'd be liable for FAET for manufacturing firearms (10% & 11% per unit, depending on a few variables). I have a rate quote from a good firearm liability insurance firm. Haven't looked at Workman's Comp or other details yet.
Any info that will help quantify requirements is a big help, thank you!
K
The above are all really great thoughts. As for Semper Fi 0321's assessment, it is spot on. Only the hardy need to apply. I already have to drive a minimum of one hour to get to anything, so that's not a big deal for me...and I loathe malls. My idea of shopping is taking a flat bed trailer to town twice a year, stocking up and getting the hell out of Dodge.
ReplyDeleteI agree with RegT, all we can do is work toward a goal, and as K states we have no idea when the economic implosion will happen so we might as well make hay while the sun shines.
The husband and I just bought a camp trailer, bringing it home today. I'm already planning a fishing trip to western Wyoming. Start thinking of any thing you what me to find out while we're there. ;)
Miss Violet
More from Semper Fi 0321: The climate in Dubois is mild for Wyoming, we are pretty much the banana belt for the state. Windy, but the snowfall is less and doesn't stay on the ground long. Lander gets way more snow being up against the mtns, Riverton is out in the desert and gets a lot colder and more wind. Sublette County/Pinedale is brutal in winter, their lows can reach -40' and stay that way for long periods. How the cattle survive the winter is just beyond me.
ReplyDeleteWe have no personal income tax here, but car registration isn't cheap. A new truck will set you back around $2000 for sales tax and license fees. The license plates will be about $700 lets say and drop $100 each year for about 7 yrs, then bottom out at $120-150 thereafter.
Food is not cheap, many folks shop in a big city once a month for the big essentials. But that won't matter, we'll soon see things change no matter where you live. Plan on getting a good 4x4 pickup truck with knobby off road tires, you will need it for firewood and hunting no matter what you may think otherwise. Dirt roads abound, almost everyone here owns 4wheelers and sidexsides. Most families here have 2 trucks, sedans are not seen except in town. If you have 2wheel drive pickup, sell it now, there is no market in WY for used 2wd trucks. Any hot rods and city vehicles? Sell them and turn them into what you need here. Some friends from FL are realizing that all their precious toys have no place here, now they are torn between selling their property here or their toys in FL.
I have an old GMC pickup and a newer Subaru wagon. Used to drive just newer pickups, then decided that everything I have would be paid off. So now I'm debt free with older vehicles, works fine. When work slows down, I don't panic over bills like I used to.
more later.... Semper Fi, 0321
@ Semper Fi, 0321
ReplyDeleteWhat about on the other side of the Wind River range, to the south? Over by Pinedale? Looks like a couple of nice little lakes by Pinedale.
Also you need to take into consideration that a large portion of Fremont co., is the Wind River Indian (Shoshone & Arapaho) reservation.
Miss Violet
My wife and I are moving to Lander the end of the month. We plan on scouting out the area when we get there. I've been told the Pinedale area gets hammered in the winter, but as Semper Fi stated, Dubois is milder. There is cheaper land up north around Deaver, Frannie and east, but it's flat and the wind blows. We are leaning toward the area just west of the middle of the state.
ReplyDeleteWhen we were up there, my wife saw an ad for some land near Meeteetse in a real estate magazine. Can't recall it exactly, but it was a number of 2 acre lots with power, water and natural gas available for $14K each. Don't recall if there were any covenants restricting the use of RV's or mobiles. We'll have to check it out again when we get to Lander.
There is a Super Walmart in Riverton, and another in Cody, IIRC. Some decent shopping in Powell and the bigger towns like Sheridan, Casper, Cheyenne. I'll be looking for a good gunsmith when I get out there to drill and tap my Shiloh Sharps for scope bases. Yeah, I know Quigley didn't need a scope, but my old eyes can't cut it with iron sights. That front sight on that 34" barrel becomes invisible when I shoulder the rifle ;-)
For the CPA - what about something like a co-op rather than a company? Individuals could join the co-op instead of buying stock, eliminating the multi-state filing and expense problem. What might be the advantages or disadvantages of going that direction? No matter what, we should take the Tom Baugh, "Starving the Monkeys" approach and work every angle to our advantage.
ReplyDeleteFor firearms to manufacture - how about a modern black powder revolver that had an easily changed barrel and stock that could make it into a rifle? At the Fed level, at least, it isn't a firearm.
Technology can make a real difference. Meshnets for a local independent internet, cnc for the manufacturing process, maybe a secure local currency based on gold and cryptography. Check out http://opensourceecology.org/ for some interesting "do it yourself" civilization building tools (don't be put off by the name, it's some great stuff).
This is a fantastic idea and could really benefit from a forum and chat home of its own, rather than having to be constantly bumped up to the top of the blog. That way information and subjects could be more organized. There are several possible ways to do that. A DSL connection, a cheap Linux box and a $10/year domain would do it.
From Semper Fi 0321: Miss Violet, those lakes start with the Green River Lakes in the north and end with Boulder Lake in the south. Absolutely stunning beauty. As is the entire Wind River Mtn. range
ReplyDeletehttp://www.pinedaleonline.com/photogallery/greenriver/home.htm
The Pinedale side is wonderful, very scenic, but land prices there are probably more than Fremont County(haven't checked for actual stats). Most land and recreational property has gone sky high in that area. And again, the weather on that side is truly fierce. But, Pinedale might be the right spot. The town itself is very charming, a real old west cowboy town. New brewery too!
http://www.pinedaleonline.com/
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/56/56035.html
Yes, we do have the Wind River Indian Reservation here, with a very high crime rate now, but most of us just pass through it on our way to Riverton or Lander.
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/56/56013.html
Kerodin,
ReplyDeleteI have briefly looked at Wyoming law and I didn't find any excise taxes at the state level. They were mostly concerned with alcohol and tobacco. Wyoming does have sales tax of 4% with a county option of 1%. They also have property tax, but it is assessed on 9.5% of the value of the property. For ex. you have a 100,000 piece of property, you will take this times 9.5% to get $9,500. Then to get the tax, take the $9,500 times the tax rate (a maximum of 12%) which is $1,140. This seems high, but Wyoming has to fill the coffers somehow. As you are aware, no individual or business income taxes. Which is good.
I also briefly looked at the FAET laws. Man, what a quagmire that is. You have the tax of 10% for each handgun and 11% for each rifle, shotgun or ammo you manufacture. On top of that, in another area, the Company has to pay a tax of $200 per weapon, a flat tax. To go further, there is a $1,000 a year per location "occupation" tax. So three plants, $3,000. This is on top of gaining the approval for each location. The company has an annual filing with the Secretary of each Internal Revenue District in which business is carried.
In essence, forms upon forms upon taxes. I have just scratched the surface on this issue and regulations on firearms manufacture are abundant.
If this were to ever come closer to reality it would be wise to map this whole area out so you don't step in any holes from the get go.
I know the view I just gave is more like 80,000 feet up vs. 40,000. I will need more time to get down there. My job right now is consuming most of my time.
I will say this though, with the complexity and the legal hurdles, I would expect the best business format to do this would be a C corporation. This will go a long way to insulating the owners of the company. Also, there is a lot of talk in my profession about a real possibility for C corporation tax rates going down while individual rates go up.
As much as it sucks paying any tax, to not pay the tribute will end this not long after it begins.
Chad